Prophetnick77 -- Point 1: First Rebuttal

Point 1: The Trinity--Is it or is it not sound biblical doctrine?

Before beginning it is imperative that we establish some fundamentals for the topic of conversation. The first being that there is only one God and His name is Yahweh (Deuteronomy 4:35; 2Samuel 22:32). The second matter at hand is unequivocally defining two terms from the onset. Those terms are (1) “Being” and (2) “Person” as they will be used repeatedly throughout this debate.

(1) The term “Being” will be used in reference to what Yahweh is. Synonyms for this word will be “nature,” “essence,” and “substance.” Being is an ontological designation speaking to the “stuff” that Yahweh consists of. It describes Deity.

(2) “Person” will be used in reference to each member of the Trinity. We are limited in our language and as such are at a disadvantage to truly describe God in His fullness, but the term “Person” will not be used in its normal connotation of humans, but rather in the sense that a “Person” is one with personality, who thinks, has intelligence, self-awareness, and the ability to reason. The “Persons” are who Yahweh is.

Having established that, the question at hand is: “The Trinity—is it or is it not, sound Biblical doctrine?” To this question I answer that it is sound Biblical doctrine. Before beginning this debate Searchingone1033 asked me what kind of Trinitarianism I hold to and I told him that I hold to orthodox Trinitarianism as affirmed in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed and the Athanasian Creed. The question was then asked if I would be arguing based on these creeds and my response was “no.” I explained that I would be arguing my point based on the inspired Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek Scriptures. I will stand by my words and do exactly that, but I would first like to address the claim of illogic concerning the Trinity.

It was asserted that the Trinity is proven by means of a fallacious syllogism and that “Trinitarians acknowledge that God is nowhere described in the Bible as three persons in one being.” Well, in point of fact, this Trinitarian acknowledges no such thing and as per the above definitions we see from the One Being (Substance) of Deity there subsists, Three Persons. Next, we are never told why the reasoning of the Athanasian Creed was fallacious or unscriptural; we are simply told that it is.

The example my opponent has used is a faulty analogy in that he is representing 3 X’s as being 1 X (“A is X, B is X, C is X, but there is only one X”), while this is clearly not the belief of Trinitarians. This would violate the law of non-contradiction that states something cannot be both true and false at the same time and in the same sense. In other words, God cannot be both 3 Gods and 1 God at the same time and in the same sense; neither can God be both 3 Persons and 1 Person at the same time and in the same sense. But there is no rule of logic violated in the Trinitarian belief of 1 God eternally existing as 3 Persons.

Now concerning the propositions as set forth in the Athanasian Creed, we can see clearly that they are scriptural and have their foundation in the very Word of God. Observe:

(1) So the Father is God (Malachi 2:10)

(2) the Son is God, (Hebrews 1:8)

(3) and the Holy Ghost is God (Acts 5:3-4).

(4) And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God (Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:6, 8, 45:5-6, 14, 21-22, 46:9).”

Now as it stands, the English word “God” in and of itself is ambiguous. There are many applications of the various Hebrew (El, Elim, Eloah, and Elohim), Aramaic (Elah, Elahin), and Greek (Theos) words translated as “God” in the Bible. The Hebrew word “elohim” alone has reference to at least 5 different groups including:

(1) The one true God of creation (Genesis 1:1)
(2) Idols (Deuteronomy 4:28)
(3) False gods (Judges 11:24)
(4) Angels (Psalm 8:5)
(5) Men (Exodus 7:1)

God is described in Daniel 2:47 as “Elah elahin” (Aramaic for “God of gods”). The Greek word “Theos” is used in reference to:

(1) The one true God of creation (Matthew 4:10)
(2) Men (Acts 28:6)
(3) Idols (Acts 19:26)
(4) Satan (2Corinthians 4:4)

The reasons I make mention of this is that it is not enough that the Father is called God, the Son is called God, and the Holy Spirit is called God. The title in and of itself does not necessitate that each person being called God is the one true God, nor does it irrefutably prove the Trinity. My opponent has claimed that the Trinitarian must take a passage here and a passage there and string them together in order to arrive at the doctrine of the Trinity. To this I say that the Trinitarian observes every passage in context and then systematically arrives at the doctrine. In other words, it is not random passages put together to create foreign doctrine, but rather contextual readings put together to eliminate confusion, contradiction, and error in the Word of God.

As I just stated, the title “God” in and of itself is not enough to make my case, so for this reason I must examine other areas and draw my conclusions based on the all the relevant data. Not only do the 3 Persons in question share the title “God” they also share the title “Lord” as can be seen in 2Corinthians 6:18, John 20:28, and 2Corinthians 3:17. Once again, this is not an exclusive title reserved for Yahweh alone. So now we must extend our search into attributes that do exclusively belong to the one true God, namely: (1) Eternality, (2) Omnipotence, (3) Omniscience, and (4) Omnipresence. There are only three Persons in all of scripture who possess these attributes.

(1) The Father is eternal (Psalm 90:2), as is the Son (Micah 5:2), and the Holy Spirit is as well (Hebrews 9:14).

(2) The Father is omnipotent (Daniel 4:35), as is the Son (Matthew 28:18), and the Holy Spirit as well (Isaiah 40:12).

(3) The Father is omniscient (1John 3:20), as is the Son (John 16:30), and the Holy Spirit as well (1Corinthians 2:10-11).

(4) The Father is omnipresent (1Kings 8:27), as is the Son (John 3:13), and the Holy Spirit as well (Psalm 139:7-18).

Now as such the Trinity is already proven scripturally, for if there is only One Being who possesses these attributes and there are Three Persons which exhibit them, then we must conclude that the Three Persons constitute the One Being.

The case for the Trinity can be further proven in specific acts/functions which God alone can perform. Although there are more I will establish this matter in the mouth of three witnesses: (1) Creation, (2) Salvation, (3) Indwelling.

(1) Isaiah 44:24 tells us that Yahweh has made all things, stretched out the heavens alone, and spread out the earth by Himself, yet scripture reveals the Father as creator (Isaiah 64:8), the Son as creator (John 1:3, Colossians 1:16), and the Holy Spirit as creator (Job 26:13, 33:4). Combine this with God’s use of the plural pronouns “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26 and the Trinitarian has an airtight case.

(2) Isaiah 43:11 informs us that besides Yahweh, there is no savior. Salvation in scripture is presented as a threefold process involving (1) Justification, (2) Sanctification, and (3) Glorification which is accomplished via resurrection (1Corinthians 15:42-44, 53-54). The Bible affirms that we are justified by the Father (Romans 8:30), the Son (Acts 13:39), and the Holy Spirit (1Corinthians 6:11). Likewise we are Sanctified by the Father (1Thessalonians 5:23), the Son (Hebrews 2:11), and the Holy Spirit (1Peter 1:2). The believer’s glorification is procured by the resurrection of our bodies which is an act that the Father (1Corinthians 6:14), the Son (John 6:39-40, 44), and the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11).

(3) While dedicating the temple King Solomon asked this question—he said, “Will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have built?” (1Kings 8:27) Stephen in his final speech before he was stoned to death said that God does not dwell in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48 cf. Isaiah 66:1). Paul confirms this point in his speech to the Athenians in Acts 17:24. That being said we can see that God does indeed dwell somewhere; that place being the bodies of believers (1Corinthians 3:16-17, 6:19). Since we are the temple of God, it makes no sense to believe that another other than God would dwell in us. From here we see that the Father dwells in us (2Corinthians 6:16), as does the Son (Colossians 1:27), and the Holy Spirit (2Timothy 1:14), hence another example of God’s Tri-unity.

So while an attempt was made to dismiss a doctrine based on its late arrival in Christian confessions of faith or its perceived absence from the earliest writings of second century Christians (Click Here for Ante-Nicene quotes on the Trinity), it has been proven scripturally that the Trinity is in fact a Biblical doctrine.

Searchingone1033 -- Point 1: Opening Statement

Point 1: The Trinity--Is it or is it not sound biblical doctrine?


The doctrine of the trinity was declared to be an essential tenet of the Christian faith by the Athanasian Creed of the 5-6th century:

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;

2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

Prior to this date, no such statement of orthodoxy had been issued by any Christian council, nor any of the early Christian leaders.

It is reasonable to question the legitimacy of such a doctrinal statement, made by uninspired men who lived some 300 years after the apostolic era, which had no precedent in the first 400 years of Christian history. Under such circumstances, why should such a doctrinal statement, made by a council of however many men, be considered accurate and binding on all Christians?

If such a doctrinal statement as this is truly accurate and binding on all Christians, then why not other doctrinal statements made by other church councils, whether earlier or later?

Traditionally, the doctrine of the trinity has been assembled using the following syllogistic reasoning:

* The Father is God
* The Son is God
* The Holy Spirit is God
* There is only one God
* Therefore, the one God must constitute Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Such a syllogism is necessary because the Bible nowhere describes God in Trinitarian terms – nowhere is He described as three persons in one being.

The doctrine has to be assembled gradually by inference and a chain of syllogistic reasoning, taking a passage of Scripture from here, a passage from there, and cobbling them together into one formula in a way which Scripture itself never does, to describe a concept which Scripture does not contain.

It must be noted that this particular syllogism results in a logical fallacy, that A is X, B is X, and C is X, but there is only one X. This alone demonstrates that the reasoning is false. Accurate reasoning from the Scriptures should not result in logical fallacies which have to be dismissed with hand waving explanations such as ‘God can do anything’. If logic is to be used to formulate the doctrine, then the doctrine must submit to logic.

The syllogistic method by which the Trinity is assembled is useful as a demonstration that Trinitarians acknowledge that God is nowhere described in the Bible as three persons in one being. Since God is nowhere described in the Bible in this way, and since God is consistently described as one person, this definition of God cannot be accepted as accurate.

There are four important points to be made here:

* Nowhere does the Bible describe God as three persons in one being – on the contrary, He is consistently described as one person, the Father

* Nowhere in the Bible is the doctrine of the trinity said to be the central tenet of the Christian faith, and the doctrine itself (that God constitutes three persons in one being), is completely absent from the Bible, and on the contrary the Bible predicates salvation on knowledge of, and belief in, God as one person (the Father), and Jesus Christ His son, who is described as ‘the man, Christ Jesus’

* None of the earliest Christian creedal confessions contain the statement that the trinity is an essential tenet of the Christian faith

* The doctrine of the trinity as found in the Athanasian Creed (though not the Nicene Creed, which contains no formal definition of the trinity), is absent from the Christian writings of at least the first 300 years of Christian history, being the product of long and gradual development over time, amid decades of disputes, bickering, disagreement, and even violence

We shall address these points one by one.

The first is that the Bible repeatedly describes God as one person (the Father), not three persons. The personal pronouns ‘He’, ‘His’, ‘Him’, ‘I’, ‘Me’, ‘My’, and ‘Mine’ are used repeatedly to describe God, not ‘God the Father’ (one person of three in one being), and not ‘We’, nor are the Trinitarian distinctions ‘God the Father’, ‘God the Son’, and ‘God the Holy Spirit’ found in the Bible (the latter two are terms invented by Trinitarians).

We are told explicitly that ‘The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:6, Mark 12:29), that ‘he is one, and there is no one else besides him’ (Mark 12:32), never ‘God is three in one’. The absence of the word ‘trinity’ from the Bible is completely unimportant, but the fact that the very concept of God being three persons in one being is found nowhere in the Bible, is of great significance.

Particularly in the New Testament, the apostles repeatedly distinguish God from Christ, not ‘God the Father’ from ‘God the Son’, indicating that ‘God’ and ‘Christ’ are two separate beings, and that ‘God’ is one person, the Father (quotes).

We look in vain in any of the preaching speeches of the apostles (see the Acts), or even their letters and epistles to mature Christians, for evidence that they taught people of a God who was three persons in one being. The concept is entirely absent from their teaching.

The second is that nowhere in the Bible is the doctrine of the trinity said to be the central tenet of the Christian faith. On the contrary, salvation is predicated on knowing that the Father is the ‘only true God’, and that Jesus Christ is His son:

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life—that they know you, [the Father] the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we live, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we live.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you too were called to the one hope of your calling,
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

These declarations are the complete opposite of the statement made by the Athanasian Creed.

The third is that none of the earliest Christian creedal confessions contain the statement that the trinity is an essential tenet of the Christian faith. It is not found in the earliest creedal statements such as the ‘Apostles’ Creed’ and the ‘Didache’ (proof), or the confessions of the Elders of Smyrna, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Marcellus or Rufinus (proof).

This is significant, because it demonstrates that this insistence on the Trinity as an essential tenet of the Christian faith was invented much later, and was not a part of the original gospel message, nor even a belief among the early Christians of the 2nd century.

The fourth is that the doctrine was as much an innovation as the doctrines of purgatory and transubstantiation, demonstrable from the fact that it underwent the same process of centuries of argument and development, remains disputed as to its details even among those who hold it, was nor declared to be an essential tenet of the Christian faith (still less the essential tenet), for the first 400 years of Christian history, and is derived by inference from Scripture, rather than being taught explicitly by Scripture, through a process of syllogistic reasoning.

A comparison of the ‘Apostles’ Creed’, the ‘Nicene Creed’, and the later ‘Athanasian Creed’ demonstrates clearly the development which took place over time. The ‘Apostles Creed’ (though preserved completely in the early creedal statements we have considered), was almost completely excluded from the later creeds. This demonstrates a clear departure from what was originally taught.

In summary:

* The Bible describes God as one person, the Father, and never as three persons

* There are no verses in the entire Bible which say that you are a heretic if you deny the trinity (there are plenty of verses in the Bible which say that you are a heretic if you deny that Jesus is a man)

* The teaching of the apostles was that to a true Christian there is one God, and that one God is one person, that one person is the Father, Jesus Christ is His son, and the man who is the mediator between God and men is his son.isHis son

* The Lord Jesus Christ himself says it is life eternal to know that the Father is the only true God

* The earliest Christian creedal statements make no mention of the doctrine of the Trinity whether explicitly or implicitly, describe God as one person (‘the Father Almighty’), Christ as His son, the Holy Spirit as simply ‘the Holy Spirit’ (not even a person), and say nothing of the doctrine of the Trinity being essential to the Christian faith

Moderator Introduction

This is a four point debate between Searchingone1033 a non-Trinitarian and Prophetnick77 a Trinitarian. The format is as follows, point one is the subject of the Trinity, is it or is it not sound biblical doctrine, point two is the being of the Father, point three who is the person of the Son and point four who or what is the Holy Spirit.

Each point will have an opening statement by the first participant and a rebuttal by the second. Each participant will then each get one follow up comment or statement on each point. Searchingone1033 will have the opening statement on point one and Prophetnick77 will have the opening statement on point two, alternating between each participant on points three and four.

The debate will begin on Monday August 7, 2006 each participant will have three days to respond to the others statement or comments with a 1500 word limit for opening statements and each response.

As per the participants request this is a closed debate and we will not be able to post any comments, statements or question from anyone outside of this debate.